Corporate Double Talk

[DHayward]

Ordinarily I'd lock and move this topic, but considering it's our own staff who's getting toe to toe, I'm not sure what to do. Its a shame to see many talented creators arguing over a game.

I respect those who partake here, and I'd really hate to see anyone leave the forum for such a menial topic such as Auran's demise/uprising/consistency.

I won't lock this topic, with the assumption that many incredibly smart, incredibly mature members will respectfully settle their opinions either privately, or drop the matter totally.

Gentlemen, you're putting out fire with gasoline.

[22alpha]

I see the points on both sides.  Dillon I don't think you need to worry just yet, wait till the name calling and hair pulling.  This is going to be a heated debate, but everyone has valid points, I kind of want to see how it plays out.   

Mike

[Zorronov]

Ok...I'm gonna chill on it.   

Cheers,
Fred

[NS_37]

i take no responsibility for anything anyone wants to take personally, but this topic is old, and i have nothing more to say.

[sturmtiger]

I think this subject will just have to fall into that area of agree to disagree. There is no doubt that 2004/2006 routes can look fantastic. Just look in the screenshots area to see that. I do think though that there are and will be a lot of great routes for 2010. The biggest deciding factor for me in staying with 2010 is the fact that it is so stable. It very, very, very rarely crashes. I have left it running all night and into the next day and come back and pick up where I left off. That sold it for me.

[Dermmy]

where am i missing the part thats so terrible?

No name calling, no argument, no nuffink except an honest open answer to an asked question.

And anyone who doubts my respect for Justin can go dunk their heads in the shitter till they come to their senses...

Of the screenies posted most could have been taken in any version of Trainz since1.3 and there is absolutely nothing 'wrong' with them, some bloody nice screens among them actually.  They prove nothing pro or con TS10.

There are two though which scream TS2010:

002 - the hi-res ground texture on the far river-bank is what - 200 feet away? It looks like you are right on top of it.  The illusion of distance is completely spoilt.  There is simply no need for hi-res ground textures in Trainz.  In a First Pers Shooter when you are lying on the ground aiming at an approaching bad guy, hi-res ground textures enhance the scene greatly.  In Trainz even in a screenshot they scream 'Toy Train'.  Ground textures in Trainz are better lo-res, they look more realistic from (or towards) a 'typical' Trainz view from (or to) a moving train.

But the main issue is in s'shot 001 - the trees are awful.  Nobody ever produced an alpha tree looked that bad.  The leaves are the size of dinner plates and the textures are awful.  And I don't care how many LODs there are, they are about a zillion polys each.  The sheer number of posts at Auran complaining about TS10 FPS is witness to this, I guarantee that about 90% of them go back to speedtrees - a miss-named asset if ever there was one.

To amplify on this remember way back when i built the first couple of East Kentucky releases?  Built in TRS04 on an archaic 'puter the best I could manage tree-wize was tiny groups of three or four identical trees placed about a hundred meters apart and it still stuttered and stalled and cached every board change.  Folks loved it, but truth to tell I was never all that convinced.  But now using the exact same TRS04 platform, but utilizing today's computer, I can plant alpha trees shoulder-to-shoulder horizon-to-horizon and it runs smooth as silk.  It is finally a workable model of the real world.  Today's computers make TRS04 the platform it always had the potential to be.

If however I take that same up-to-date computer and re-build East Kentucky in TRS10 using SpeedTrees, I have to go back to a dozen trees every hundred meters.  And it will stutter and stall and cache (OK. TS10 handles caching differently, but you get the picture).

The fact was that an enhanced and updated TRS04/06 which addressed the many many faults and issues that those programs have would have ushered us into a 'golden age' of train sims - the undoubted better-than-the-rest program could have become something utterly outstanding.

The unfortunate fact though is that the development of Trainz has taken a turn totally away from what should (imho) be it's core values.  It has become simply a platform for the creation of splendid models.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with 'splendid models'.  But it will never produce a 'splendid route' - not of the sort that has become possible with the older platforms (04 and/or 06).  It will produce the same old  slow, stuttery routes Trainz always has produced, but instead of a stuttering Paintshed SD it will be a splendidly detailed new loco with unbelievable textures stuttering through a sparse forest of sadly waving speedtrees.

How much better the alternative would have been.

And it never had to come down to either-or.  Last week you Justin were perfecting your new Safetran Sigs, or maybe working on the textures for some stupendous new model while Fred, George and I were cheerfully working towards the completion of some new routes.  We were all happy, nobody thought anybody's approach to Trainz was 'right' or 'wrong' or 'better' or 'worse'.  And nobody's preferences were better or worse: we were just different, and cheerfully and properly so.  There was room for us all.  But suddenly Auran have produced a policy which makes some of us positive progressive model builders working towards a bright new hi-tech hi-res future while others of us are now reactionary old fogies holding onto the last remnants of an obsoleted dream.

Bullshit.  We are all who we were last week.  We all want to be doing - and loving - what we were doing last week.

It's just that some of us - quite honestly - have suddenly no idea where we stand.  Trainz is emphatically NOT a 'game'.  Nor is it a lifestyle.  But for some of us it is much closer to the 'lifestyle' end of the scale.  I do not for one moment belittle the time, effort or commitment that goes into content creation.  But I honestly do not believe that a non-route-builder can quite comprehend just what it takes to actually get a good route out. The effort is colossal, the risk enormous, sustained not over days or weeks or even months but often over years on a single project.  We do it because we love it.  Route building is not a pastime, it is not a hobby, it is a passion. 

Auran just threw a huge bucket of icy water on the fire...

Andy

[22alpha]

Wow.  Excellent points Andy, this is the kind of post I was hoping to see, you explained everything pretty damn good if you ask me.  I now see both sides much more clearly.  I'm not a content creator, I enjoy building and modifying routes. 2006 was pretty much a lost cause for me, as I experienced multiple crashes, fatal errors, etc.  2009 has proved to be a much more stable platform for me personally.  I personally don't like these speedtrees, I think Auran should have expanded on what you refer to core values.  As long as we have a talented group such as everyone here, I think we can make this what we need it to be.  Again Andy, great post, thanks.

Mike 

[sturmtiger]

Nicely stated Andy  +1

[gfisher]

Couldn't agree more, Andy. But then I think you already knew that.

[gfisher]

At risk of being called a whiner again, I would just like to point something out. I am actually interested in aquiring 3dsMax and using it for it's greater capabilities, regardless of which Trainz version I build for. Fred could afford to joke about the lack of an exporter because he gets a VERY substantial discount from the $3300 or so that a new version of Max10 costs. The problem is that when Max10 comes out, Max9 and of course the earlier versions are withdrawn from the market. I asked the following question of a distributer just this morning:

> Perhaps you would be kind enough to answer another question for me. If I
> were able to find a "used" version of Max9 from a third party
> somewhere....one was advertised on Amazon a while back....would that be
> considered a legitimate copy, or would I be violating the manufacturer's
> license if I were to purchase and use it?

His answer:

We are one of only 4 authorized online dealers of Autodesk software and
licenses; the copies you see on Amazon, eBay, NexTag, etc. are all
illegal bootlegs and will either not work or will work for a few weeks
and then quit. Some of them even have malware embedded in them. So yes,
if you purchased one of those you would be in violation of Autodesk
license policies as well as out your money eventually.

Now I have no intention of running bootleg software, and I am not accusing anyone else of doing it either. But it does leave someone like myself in the lurch until such time as Neverfail gets around to producing the exporter, which I am sure they will eventually do. So I think my mentioning this problem was legitimate, and not merely uninformed whining.

[22alpha]

There have to be places available online to get unopened unregistered software that's not too far out of date.  His explaination sounded more like a sales pitch to me....   If I find anything suitable George I will let you know, you looking for MAX 9?

Mike 

[22alpha]

George try this, not a bad price either.  Seems legit to me.  Although hookers and beer do too, but that's not the point.   

http://www.sdiscounter.com/shop/item/84

[gfisher]

Well the price is right, but if you read it carefully they say you don't get a license with it, so it is basically bootleg. Of course I guess I could buy Max10 with it's license and then go and buy Max9 for 150.00 more, and I would at least have a license and could use the exporter for Trainz. I'll have to think this over a bit.

[NS_37]

no you can get it online legit, but yes in order to be supported by autodesk say for the autodesk subscriptions you have to get it from an authorized reseller. yes there are probably bootlegs for sale, but a boxed unopened copy is what you want.

[Zorronov]

I got mine from JourneyEd.com.  They sell highly discounted software from various companies to students and educators.  I installed it, registered with Autodesk, and got the license with no problem.  Of course, it's for non-commercial use only.

Cheers,
Fred